Curse

Me NoFat · Mar 01, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

I also know how to take on 25 griffons easily but I think the statement about 40-50 would be impossible...sorry but theoretical bragging aside, the number of hits you will take even with 75% chance to block would mean you would be dead before your next cyclone so the healing from it would be useless, and not to mention the damage you take while running to gather them all...

The damage from 50 enemies (at lvl 20+) would put you under even with best amour, runes and 75% chance to miss in the time cyclone recharges....end of discussion.

Battle - My comment on 50 was out there. I was using it to drive home a point.

Even at 25 though I will never die without a breeze...unless I do something stupid. I have not stepped on a trap in so long I can't remember. There is no need for breeze but take it if it makes you feel safer.

If you don't buy this then I would be more than happy to show you in game.

Me NoFat · Mar 01, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintGreg

the original post is a bit biased. The build for SoJ warrior would not have such high tactics, because without glad's defense, tactics is useless as long as bonetti's lasts long enough to stay up between cyclone axes. In reality it would probably look more like:

Smite: 12
Healing: 8
Axe: 13 (9 + 3 + 1)
Strength: 8 (5 + 3)
Tactics: 3 (2 + 1)

if you really want to meet your shield's req (even though it affects less than half of the enemies) you could drop axe mastery and put it into strength or tactics whichever is your shields req.

At 12 smiting, SoJ lasts 18+20%=22 sec with 45 recharge. It does 41 damage per hit.

At 16 tactics, Glad's defense lasts 11 sec with 30 recharge. It does 33 damage per hit so 24.75 average damage per swing.

Glads defense does damage faster clearly, because the knockdown from SoJ slows attack speed by about 3 times or so, but the down time consideration means that they are closer than they look at first glance - each probably does close to the same damage output over the long haul. Glad's defense IS superior to SoJ for a warrior farming, but it isn't simply because of damage, the damage is pretty close.

It is not a biased opinion as I have a 55 and I also use SoJ when it is the better choice. There is no doubt that it is a great skill and has its uses as a warrior. Those uses however do not include griffon farming.

Me NoFat · Mar 01, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

Thank you for poiting out the obvious. You have told everyone what they already know and said nothing about the previous posts. What happend if your fighting 20+ enemies and as you switch to a new enemy he runs (as he is the one thats waits but is in the group) and you follow right into a trap?...this happens and you would die mid fight if you didnt have breeze.... of course you can lead em away from the traps but the thing about traps is that sometimes as your herding larger numbers of groups you run into em just as the fight begins. I take breeze because of months of farming telling me what skills to take when those certain circumstances happen.

I dont feel this is a discussion any more use your head.....Breeze is overkill unless you farm 20-25 enemies... anyone saying otherwise can team with me and show me and then we can discuss this after in this forum. All Im asking is for proof to silence any 'would-be exagerators'...or even better still learn something I dont already know about farming which would be brill

I will await the Pm in game

There is no need to ever run over a trap....

Add me and we can compare...IGN = Me Nofat

Battle Torn · Mar 01, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Ok will do, stepping on traps isnt a usual thing though, only wheny your trying to herd large groups it can happen. You know how it is when sometimes you run out of Augury and the Rockshot just keep spawning..I have had 12 before I reached the second set of 3 minatours. Sometimes Ive had Rockshot appear once Ive been farming without moving and ran back into their trap. As I never use any other attack skills I bring Breeze for these cases, but they are rare so unless this happens I wont be able to prove this...but you know breeze in these cases would help already. This is the same with herding 25 enemies... it only happens if the spawn is right so unless this also happens we cant compare if Breeze is necessary..... but we can give it a go Im interested in this

anyway Ill add you but I have the feeling we will only be showing each other the same farming build

but Im up for anything that can improve things.

Me NoFat · Mar 01, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I know the problem already there will be no need to demonstrate.

Drop Breeze and add sprint. There is no need to farm until you reach the griffons. Once there I believe that you are experianced enough to avoid the traps. After you apply Mending and Liv Vic you should have enough energy for one sprint that you use when rounding the bend to start farming. During the 1st attack you will have to build addrenline while Glads is doing its job. After that the norm spam of cyclone + bons until glads is up again.

I believe that that will solve all your issues with rockshots.

We can still get together but I believe it will be pointless once you give a /doh

Battle Torn · Mar 01, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Drop Breeze and add sprint. There is no need to farm until you reach the griffons. Once there I believe that you are experianced enough to avoid the traps. After you apply Mending and Liv Vic you should have enough energy for one sprint that you use when rounding the bend to start farming. During the 1st attack you will have to build addrenline while Glads is doing its job. After that the norm spam of cyclone + bons until glads is up again.

If you check out my screenie you can see I have sprint already

and if you check out my vid I posted you will see I know how to get past rockshot and when to start farming (this is where the vid begins), its not such a simple problem as sprinting past rockshot. The problem isnt witht the first group its witht the second while you are agroing and keeping them interested. If I were to leave breeze it would be for an axe attack for bosses. I have nearly 4mil exp so I am pretty experienced, but when herding 25 enemies over rockshot spawning area it isnt allways possible not to cross an area they poped up and run the risk of traps and you simply cant allways see where they laid them, this is the problem. Its very difficult keeping 5 groups interested in you until you can farm them and it can take a little running around, maybe this is something you do differently? and therefore no need for breeze. I would still like to team up anyway, as I said my intention is to improve and get to the heart of a perfect build, not to be negative in any way etc

I can see now that you havent had the problems with Rockshot I have had so that means we are farming different spots maybe or using different techniques, all I know is until someone shows me them taking on 25 enemies (5-6 groups) without breeze then I will trust my own extensive farming experience and it will remain on my skillbar.

Me NoFat · Mar 02, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Finally watched your video.

Not much that you can learn from watching me. I would just say that maybe I am more aware of Rockshot spawn points and where I am running.

I would like to note that you could carry heal sig instead of breeze and use that when you bring glads up if you happen to cross a trap. The spike from it with str high is just as good and it costs 0 energy. I also would not use balths spirit but you have open slots so that is a preference call I guess. I just don't like having -1 regen on energy when not fighting. I think you would be better served with the dismember + exec strike combo for bosses then you are with breeze and balths aura but again I think this just boils down to both having a high amount of experiance and comfort with their build.

Battle Torn · Mar 02, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

I ran a few farms again last night and when trying to lure 5 goups... I have to say its impossible without taking alot of damage, in fact I could only still manage this at between a quarter and half health. Im not talking about 3 groups etc... just when your trying to get 5 groups of em on you at once. Rockshot are random and they did spawn in the middle of doing this, but I didnt have to run past them so didnt fall foul to their traps. I think best thing would be to post a second video of me luring 5 groups and show you that it cant be done without breeze (or similar) due to the huge damage you take while herding them together. Balthazars is a must as I can build up energy while luring, but I am playing with the idea of switching out for an axe attack. -1 degen is avoided by simply double clicking the Live vicariously icon on screen (not skillbar) and cancel it meaning no degen

then re-cast after your glads defence in the next battle. You usualy finish farming with near-to-full energy anayway so its not really a problem to be honest, but pref as you say.

Healing sign when farming?... surely the -40AR would kill you in high mobs even with 75% chance to miss from glads etc, though I havent tried this for this reason although it may be fine for smaller groups also with balthazar energy is never an issue...never

I think a more accurate statement that having anything other than mending a vamp axe and live vicariously when farming is necessary for beginner farmers as it would allow mistakes and learning how to get the timing right. It isnt necessary for experienced farmers who know what they are doing, but again becomes necessary for pro farmers who take it to the next level and dont farm the usual 2-3 groups a time, because then the rules change and there are other factors introduced that you dont have to worry about normaly. I think my video shows 4 groups and I did this with no sweat and no breeze...its just so difficult herding 5 groups without alot of running and in doing this you 'run the gauntlet' being hit all the time buy the griffons and can fall foul to rockshot traps. You also have to possition yourself where the minatours will run into you so you can kill even more (Ive had 7 groups at a single spot) although I had killed some of the first griffons before the minatours ran in and also had rockshot choping on me too and I wouldnt have survived without breeze. As you can see Im a little pre-occupied witht forming the perfect farming strategy. On the other hand breeze still sits most of the time un-used in my skillbar as you cant create this situation unless the spawns are in your favour but do I really need to be able to take all these on at one time anyway?.....dunno but make things a little more interesting dont you think

As I say over the next few days Ill post a vid and you can see my problem when farming in high numbers when trying to herd them together.

Me NoFat · Mar 02, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

I ran a few farms again last night and when trying to lure 5 goups... I have to say its impossible without taking alot of damage, in fact I could only still manage this at under half health. Im not talking about 3 groups etc... just when your trying to get 5 groups of em on you at once. Rockshot are random and they did spawn in the middle of doing this, but I didnt have to run past them so didnt fall foul to their traps. I think best thing would be to post a second video of me luring 5 groups and show you that it cant be done without breeze. Balthazars is a must as I can build up energy while luring, but I am playing witth the idea of switching out for an axe attack. -1 degen is avoided by simply double clicking the Live vicariously icon on screen (not skillbar) and cancel it meaning no degen

and re-cast after your glads defence. You usualy finish farming with near-to-full energy anayway so its not really a problem to be honest, but pref as you say.

Just want to mention something here. While I can do the larger group without much of a problem I find that the time I spend "gathering" usually equals itself out if I split them into 2 groups. One front and one back. I spend less time gathering but a little more time killing since it is 2 groups. Since speed is what I am going for when I farm them I find that it is a little faster with 2 groups. This way balths energy gain is neglagent and healing breeze becomes obsolete in almost any format due to the low probablility of running over traps while gathering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

Healing sign when farming?... surely the -40AR would kill you in high mobs even with 75% chance to miss from glads etc, though I havent tried this for this reason although it may be fine for smaller groups.

This is exactly what I run.

Heal Sig (not really needed but can be used when glads is up. You out heal way more damage than you take if you set your str high which I do.)
Cyclone
Exec Strike
Dismember (or Sprint)
Bons Def
Glads Def
Liv Vic
Mending

As you can see I use Heal Sig. I do this in very large groups when glads is up and I never have a problem. I would however add that I rarely use heal sig, Exec, or Dis (sprint).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

As I say over the next few days Ill post a vid and you can see my problem when farming in high numbers when trying to herd them.

Please do I am not against changing my stand on anything that I consider fact.

Also just a suggestion. Set up a weapon slot for a bow to pull those groups that are too far to aggro without losing some of your train. I noticed in the video that you did not have a bow in one of your slots.

Battle Torn · Mar 02, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Just want to mention something here. While I can do the larger group without much of a problem I find that the time I spend "gathering" usually equals itself out if I split them into 2 groups. One front and one back. I spend less time gathering but a little more time killing since it is 2 groups. Since speed is what I am going for when I farm them I find that it is a little faster with 2 groups. This way balths energy gain is neglagent and healing breeze becomes obsolete in almost any format due to the low probablility of running over traps while gathering.

exactly, Im glad you mention this so you realize that fighting the purple boss is usualy a waste of time when farming and if he is in the first far group (you know the one) then I usualy have the choice of taking the remaining 2 groups or herding them into a larger group and then you get the minatours as well without waiting for their patrol (dont confuse an experienced decision for a noobie one).
I reckon to have saved the 1.4 mil for my armour and more (I did this from farming alone) I have farmed on average 20 times per night (25k per night average) = 100 runs per week mon-friday =125k, 70 runs to get 75k at weekends as My goal was 200k per week = 170 runs per week = 1,190 runs just to get my armour. Also I have found some good wepons to sell, but I also have saved for wepon upgrades, Vikots bulwark, second set of 15k for farming (with runes), 2 perfect fellblades and perfect chaos axe etc etc so it all balances out. In total I have farmed over 1,500 times the same spot and no one has told me anything i havent already tried. I dont wish to get into a discussion questioning how I managed to keep this up because I was obsessed at one point with farming and gatting my fissure armour.

Anyway back to the main point I do not waste my time pulling larger groups needlessly and in fact only when it saves time farming when the situation warrants it and is why I attempted this in the first place. less time = more money =

of course this is fundemental to farming. I think everyone constructs a build from experience and in my experience sometimes when you get the purple boss (that isnt worth fighting) or the spawn is good then you should be able to be flexible enough to take on 5 groups easily and this means extra healing for the pro while others dont attempt.

I allways take screenshots and vids when i post something as no one more that I do beleives things should be proven, but I still need to see someone taking 5 groups without breeze before I change my mind that it isnt necessary (if there is a build that can do this then I would be happy to learn about it and adapt my build to be better). Your initial statment was regarding overhealing, my response was for some experienced farmers it is necessary due to added factors when engaging large numbers in certain circumstances. Im not trying to argue or prove you wrong, but perhaps you should listen to a valid argument. My tactics are sound and as are my reazoning for herding such large numbrs to save time when it is warranted. Fraps is what I use for capturing video and photobucket is good site to upload your screenshots (both are free) so if there is any proof you wish to post please do. So my statment...until I see 5 groups being tackled without breeze (or extra healing as your statment suggests) my statment stands that there are ocassions when pro farmers will require breeze (or extra healing). Its a fair and correct point.

I really dont want to get into discussion about why would someone herd 5 groups...its just the situation sometimes as already mentioned and as an experienced farmer I have found it sometimes necessary, perhaps you have not, lets not get side tracked.

I also find it strange that you mentioned you use healing sig...isnt this post about not having any additional healing at all and you mention you can take 25 enemies with just live vicariously, vamp axe and mending?

Dont get my posts wrong here either...Im simply tring to deduct if there is something I can learn here from you here (or not) so please take my interest in this as a compliment because you have made an interesting dicsussion

I have refined my build from discussions with others on this forum over months and my only priority is to make the perfect build and use the perfect tactics...I do not claim to have created my build from scratch, rather than refine it through discussion and experience so im not precious about it in any way....you could say Im looking for a change in my build because that would suggest I have found and improvement. We can discuss Balthazars also, but it stays, anyone not using it must have their reasons, but it stays on my bar until someone can show me a better skill to replace it and anyone not understanding the -1 degen doesnt come into it when farming (watch my vid again) with balthazars or how to cancel it after a fight I cant help.

Quote:

Also just a suggestion. Set up a weapon slot for a bow to pull those groups that are too far to aggro without losing some of your train. I noticed in the video that you did not have a bow in one of your slots.

you know that might not be such a bad idea, Ill give it a try and hope i dont miss the -2dmg reduction and combined 60hp from my sword and shield, maybe the traps be a thing of the past. Still I would only use a bow for herding larger groups, but could be usefull if i slap glads on a little earlier

I could kick myself for not thinking of such a simple thing like this for griffons before and I can can already see where I could use this. cool

Vid on the way, hopefuly tonight.

Me NoFat · Mar 02, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

I also find it strange that you mentioned you use healing sig...isnt this post about not having any additional healing at all and you mention you can take 25 enemies with just live vicariously, vamp axe and mending?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me Nofat

Heal Sig (not really needed but can be used when glads is up. You out heal way more damage than you take if you set your str high which I do.)

I believe that I said I carry it. I don't use it....unless I screw up due to chatting while farming or I use the wrong skill and don't have up a stance when I think I do. There are a few stupid mistakes made by us all. There is room on my skill bar and nothing to take so why not heal sig. Like I said I have 5 main skills and I stick by my choice in only using them. The other 3 skills are fluff for whatever floats your boat. The reason I take heal sig on occasion is for those stupid mistakes which is rare in my case. It also costs me 0 energy.

To stay on topic I would like to point out that this post was more for the people that over heal. I do not think that you are one of those people. You have pointed out valid reasons why you might decide to bring HB if you are farming. The fact that I disagree does not mean that you are wrong just that I do not choose to use it. For the people that use it as a staple healing skill in their farming....well that is who this thread was originally intended. I do not use fraps but I will post a screen shot next time I go farming. Probably not for a week due to me just starting the work week.

Human slayer · Mar 12, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

not to sound noobish or anything, but u lost me at the quote from Esign, too many numbers...lol

Cirian · Mar 13, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

I still think Stone of Jordan everytime I see SoJ

Too much D2!

Amsterdam · Mar 13, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Great discussion, I agree with you me no fat, I try to limit myself to just mending and live vicariously actually, if I am using different builds sometimes just a healing sig, I rarely bring breeze. Battle torn is there of course with positive critique, love ya guys.

Battle Torn · Mar 13, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

In general anything more than Live vicariously and mending is not needed. but there are times when pro farming breeze is needed in larger groups, and correct me here but you did say you could take 26 enemies without breeze or similar. Thas all im saying...i do not disagree with you Me no Fat now that things are explained a little more. We can both be right.

If your using a build that can take this large number without any other healing then I wanted to know..nothing more